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The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Brad Neuberg
Hi folks; everyone complains about our documentation, which is one of our achilles heels right now, so I wanted to toss a blue sky idea out there related to this:

Lets try to get corporate sponsorship on our documentation. Two options here:

1) The corporate sponsor agrees to hire a full-time, professional technical writer that will work with all of us to write first class, up to date docs
2) The crazier idea: the corporate sponsor agrees to put up a purse, perhaps with 30K or something along those lines, that will be awarded to the first online book on Dojo that wins some kind of quality test. Think of it as the Dojo Documentation X Prize.

What do y'all think?

Best,
  Brad

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Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Dan Scholten
[Dojo-interest] Comparision between Dojo and GWT

I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming project.

Thanks,
Dan


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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

jessek
I think it's going to be very hard to compare them side by side as they both solve/tackle problems in very different ways.

You should find lots of articles on ajaxian.com that point to opinions blogged about / etc...I gave a somewhat harsh opinion of it here http://ajaxian.com/archives/gwt-autocompleter#comments.

On 6/21/06, Scholten, Dan < [hidden email]> wrote:

I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming project.

Thanks,
Dan


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--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer

Open source based consulting work centered around dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind.
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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Sam Foster
In reply to this post by Brad Neuberg
Y'know, I'd be quite happy with complete javadoc-style api docs.

Also, didn't I see that Sun wanted to contribute towards the
documentation among other things?
Maybe we could set up some kind of micropayment for individual docs -
in some appropriate currency (international beer tokens,
acknowledgement on dojotoolkit.org?) That way the community could eat
the proverbial elephant one bite at a time with something more than a
hole in their free time for a reward.

If we created more stub pages and organized the wiki a bit better (and
made the process of getting a wiki account more obvious/easy) it might
happen all by itself - the community has grown and maybe we already
hit that watershed where there's enough people figuring it out by
themself and willing to put what they learnt onto paper.

I'm not at all opposed to your suggestions - if there are takers - in
the meantime and for the ongoing we still need a sustainable system.

Sam

On 6/21/06, Brad Neuberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi folks; everyone complains about our documentation, which is one of our
> achilles heels right now, so I wanted to toss a blue sky idea out there
> related to this:
>
> Lets try to get corporate sponsorship on our documentation. Two options
> here:
..
_______________________________________________
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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Josh Long
In reply to this post by Dan Scholten
i haven't used either very extensively, and dojo more than gwt...

but here goes..

There's the obvious.. dojo works with kind of other framework
relatively easily (IE, you don't need to learn java to write something
for your PHP app) whereas all GWT must at least start off as java (and
then be published/exported for possible consumption elsewhere)

in terms of the long term investment, im not to sure.. does gwt have
any one besides google officially backing it? it's not open source,
iirc. plus, of late, i count two (sun, ibm, at least) heavy weights
sitting firmly in the dojo corner.. support/stability ought to be
pretty good on both.

i would imagine dojos more robust, as it's got abstractions ranging
for all usage scenarios. if you just wanna add some flash to your
pages as you might with prototype, dojo can do that. if you want a
cross-browser solution for events, or opacity, or whatever, dojo can
do just that and then butt out. if you want to build full blown apps,
where really your app is more client than server, and the app enjoys
reuse through components, dojo (amazingly) can do that, too. you pan
prune the dojo tree, leaving only what you need for the task at hand.
essentially: dojo lets you work at all abstraction levels, from bare
metal js to components. it could be argued that gwt and its jsni
offers that, too, but there's something about writing 'native'
javascript when authoring in java that makes me want a drink... ;-)

Anyway those are just the things that spring to mind. everything else
seems equally well rounded on both sides.

peace, Josh

On 6/21/06, Scholten, Dan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone
> has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please
> reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming
> project.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Philipp Wollermann
In reply to this post by Sam Foster
On Wednesday 21 June 2006 20:51, sam foster wrote:

> Y'know, I'd be quite happy with complete javadoc-style api docs.
>
> Also, didn't I see that Sun wanted to contribute towards the
> documentation among other things?
> Maybe we could set up some kind of micropayment for individual docs -
> in some appropriate currency (international beer tokens,
> acknowledgement on dojotoolkit.org?) That way the community could eat
> the proverbial elephant one bite at a time with something more than a
> hole in their free time for a reward.
>
> If we created more stub pages and organized the wiki a bit better (and
> made the process of getting a wiki account more obvious/easy) it might
> happen all by itself - the community has grown and maybe we already
> hit that watershed where there's enough people figuring it out by
> themself and willing to put what they learnt onto paper.
>
> I'm not at all opposed to your suggestions - if there are takers - in
> the meantime and for the ongoing we still need a sustainable system.
>
> Sam
>
> On 6/21/06, Brad Neuberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi folks; everyone complains about our documentation, which is one of our
> > achilles heels right now, so I wanted to toss a blue sky idea out there
> > related to this:
> >
> > Lets try to get corporate sponsorship on our documentation. Two options
> > here:
>
> ..
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
_______________________________________________
Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
[hidden email]
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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Philipp Wollermann
In reply to this post by Sam Foster
I'm terribly sorry for my last rather empty mail. I hit the wrong key :-/

JavaDoc-Style API documentation would be great, as one of my problems besides
not knowing *how* to use all the Dojo features is, is getting to know that
they actually exist. I usually use the Nightly Tests as documentation /
examples but some real documentation would be great.

I like option 1 better - a complete book would be nice, but I suppose the
full-time documentation writer would be more helpful, as the Dojo API is
still changing too much for a book. Outdated documentation is even worse than
no documentation - often I find two examples doing the same thing and I can't
figure out, which one is the "newer" or "better" one.

Philipp

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 20:51, sam foster wrote:

> Y'know, I'd be quite happy with complete javadoc-style api docs.
>
> Sam
>
> On 6/21/06, Brad Neuberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi folks; everyone complains about our documentation, which is one of our
> > achilles heels right now, so I wanted to toss a blue sky idea out there
> > related to this:
> >
> > Lets try to get corporate sponsorship on our documentation. Two options
> > here:
>
> ..
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encoding issue?

Steve Dewitt
In reply to this post by Philipp Wollermann

I am using dojo version 0.2.2+(3458) and I am getting some strange behavior occasionally in firefox 1.5x. I use dojo.io.bind:
         dojo.io.bind({
                        url:urlToLoad,
                        load: function(type,data,evt){buildStatic(data)},
                        error: function(type,data,evt){errorMessage(data)},
                        mimetype: "text/html"});
80% of the time the data is just fine. The other 20% I get the response header and a bunch of characters not encoded properly. I have attached the txt file.  If someone can take a look at this I would appreciate it.
TIA,
Steve













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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Andrew Groom
In reply to this post by Philipp Wollermann
The big documentation hole for me is examples / tutorials on creating
and manipulating widgets programmatically. I'd also suggest that an X
prize sort of approach would be a big waste of resources - I like the
sponsorship idea a whole lot more. What about a drive for donations to
work on a Dojo book ?

Cheers, Andrew.
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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

Dustin Machi


Andrew Groom wrote:
> The big documentation hole for me is examples / tutorials on creating
> and manipulating widgets programmatically.

Hopefully all tests in the future (starting with 0.4) will have
programmatic tests along with the markup based test

There are alot of people working on documentation right now, though I
guess right now its hard to see.  It has been one of the prime
discussions over the past couple of months and I believe alot of
progress is being made.  The docutil that basically provides an API
reference is basically completed, and after some more testing I expect
it to be available for general use.  Additionally, this week Bill and
others have been working on the Dojo Book at manual.dojotoolkit.org.
There is really quite a bit of documentation out there (though not
nearly enough), but unfortunately its spread out all over the place.  We
are working on moving this documentation into the Dojo Book as well as
adding new documentation.  I have suggested that as new articles and
documentation for the Book is written, they should be cross
posted/linked to the Dojo Blog so people know that it is there.


Dustin

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Re: The Dojo Documentation X Prize

iTorrey
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andrew Groom
This has been started here

http://manual.dojotoolkit.org/WikiHome/DojoDotBook

Andrew Groom wrote:

> The big documentation hole for me is examples / tutorials on creating
> and manipulating widgets programmatically. I'd also suggest that an X
> prize sort of approach would be a big waste of resources - I like the
> sponsorship idea a whole lot more. What about a drive for donations to
> work on a Dojo book ?
>
> Cheers, Andrew.
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>
>
>
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RE: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Jeff Papineau
In reply to this post by Dan Scholten
To be fair, I have not used GWT, but I have read about it, and for me, it misses the mark..
I grabbed this out of the archive, as I posted this here some time ago.. it may be off topic a bit, but anyone considering Dojo and needing to be able to defend their position needs to have these kinds of arguments in hand to both reconcile and vindicate a decision to use Dojo..
 
Additional comments added in () below.
Jeff-
 
----------------------------------------
On 5/17/06, Jeff Papineau <jpapineau <at> responsys.com <mailto:jpapineau <at> responsys.com> > wrote:

        Not to be indelicate, but it (GWT) strikes me as an attempt by an author that
        simply does not understand the power and flexibility, and joy of writing
        in Javascript, due to the inability to separate DOM and language
        specific issues (by browser) from the language itself. And certainly
        does not understand the modularity and OO capabilities of a toolkit such
        as Dojo, Turbo, Isomorphic, etc to extend and organize javascript to be
        an enterprise capable framework.
       
        On the other hand, great for all the applet writers out there that
        simply cannot be bothered to learn JS..
       
        James Gosling does the same thing, in his interviews on Eweek. (He writes Javascript off as a "toy language" which is crippled by the various DOM implementations across the browsers, and is difficult to debug; attesting really only to his own lack of expertise in the subject.)
       
        It strikes me as the typical "most misunderstood language" syndrome, ala
        Douglas Crockford. (Many java programmers have written Javascript off as a crippled language because they tried it too early in it's evolution and have not reviewed it lately (1.5) and don't really understand it's concepts, flexability, object oriented features or power. In fact, if you ask them if Javascript is an object oriented language, they will tell you "no", which is incorrect.)
       
        I have been asking a friend when we might see a public Ajax toolkit from
        Google; he sez never, because there is no centrally organized library
        internally (each project has it's own widget set and io implementations); which is hard to believe. But this (GWT) may be endemic to that situation; which I find sad, as they could really be helping power Dojo,
        even finance Dojo, for the benefit of the entire world.
       
        There, I said it.. I only hope to draw out others that may know more
        about it than I do.
        Jeff-
       


________________________________

From: [hidden email] on behalf of Josh Long
Sent: Wed 6/21/2006 11:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Dojo-interest] Comparision between Dojo and GWT



i haven't used either very extensively, and dojo more than gwt...

but here goes..

There's the obvious.. dojo works with kind of other framework
relatively easily (IE, you don't need to learn java to write something
for your PHP app) whereas all GWT must at least start off as java (and
then be published/exported for possible consumption elsewhere)

in terms of the long term investment, im not to sure.. does gwt have
any one besides google officially backing it? it's not open source,
iirc. plus, of late, i count two (sun, ibm, at least) heavy weights
sitting firmly in the dojo corner.. support/stability ought to be
pretty good on both.

i would imagine dojos more robust, as it's got abstractions ranging
for all usage scenarios. if you just wanna add some flash to your
pages as you might with prototype, dojo can do that. if you want a
cross-browser solution for events, or opacity, or whatever, dojo can
do just that and then butt out. if you want to build full blown apps,
where really your app is more client than server, and the app enjoys
reuse through components, dojo (amazingly) can do that, too. you pan
prune the dojo tree, leaving only what you need for the task at hand.
essentially: dojo lets you work at all abstraction levels, from bare
metal js to components. it could be argued that gwt and its jsni
offers that, too, but there's something about writing 'native'
javascript when authoring in java that makes me want a drink... ;-)

Anyway those are just the things that spring to mind. everything else
seems equally well rounded on both sides.

peace, Josh

On 6/21/06, Scholten, Dan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone
> has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please
> reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming
> project.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
[hidden email]
http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest



_______________________________________________
Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
[hidden email]
http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest

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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Jack.Tang
In reply to this post by Dan Scholten
The bitter of javvascript from my eye is that now no powerful
javascript ide exist. Say, it is boring when I want to do some
refactorings in javascript.


/Jack

On 6/22/06, Scholten, Dan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone
> has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please
> reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming
> project.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>
>
>

--
Keep Discovering ... ...
Copenhagen Spirit =
高度的智力活动、大胆的涉险精神、深奥的研究内容与快活的乐天主义的混合物.

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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Dustin Machi
I don't personally use an IDE for js work (or much other development
work for that matter), but they do exist.  I know  of at least JSEclipse
(http://www.interaktonline.com/Products/Eclipse/JSEclipse/Overview/)
which works with dojo and AJAX Toolkit Framework Project (though i'm not
sure how far along this one is).

Dustin


Jack Tang wrote:

> The bitter of javvascript from my eye is that now no powerful
> javascript ide exist. Say, it is boring when I want to do some
> refactorings in javascript.
>
>
> /Jack
>
> On 6/22/06, Scholten, Dan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If
>> anyone
>> has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please
>> reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an
>> upcoming
>> project.
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>  Dan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
>> [hidden email]
>> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
_______________________________________________
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Re: encoding issue?

Alex Russell
In reply to this post by Steve Dewitt
0.2.2 is really really old. I doubt this issue will be fixed with a
newer rev, but it can't hurt to eliminate that as a factor.

Regards

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 1:34 pm, Steve Dewitt wrote:

> I am using dojo version 0.2.2+(3458) and I am getting some strange
> behavior occasionally in firefox 1.5x. I use dojo.io.bind:
>          dojo.io.bind({
>                         url:urlToLoad,
>                         load:
> function(type,data,evt){buildStatic(data)}, error:
> function(type,data,evt){errorMessage(data)} ,
>                         mimetype: "text/html"});
> 80% of the time the data is just fine. The other 20% I get the
> response header and a bunch of characters not encoded properly. I
> have attached the txt file.  If someone can take a look at this I
> would appreciate it. TIA,
> Steve
--
Alex Russell
[hidden email] BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723

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RE: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Jeff Papineau
In reply to this post by Dan Scholten
I've not yet tried it; this plugin for Eclipse may not be the ultimate Javascript IDE solution but it does exist today, and Eclipse does promise to do a lot with Javascript soon in the future.
 
http://www.interaktonline.com/Products/Eclipse/JSEclipse/Overview/
 
Personally, I like to use UltraEdit (set up to do code highlighting for HTML/Javascript) with the MSE for debugging and I would say it's close enough to using IDEA with Java that I don't miss the few features it's missing..
 
Jeff-
 
http://erik.eae.net/archives/2005/07/04/21.49.50/                 MSE Overview
http://www.ajaxhead.com/javascript/debug_javascript.html   MSE Install Info
 

________________________________

From: [hidden email] on behalf of Jack Tang
Sent: Wed 6/21/2006 10:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Dojo-interest] Comparision between Dojo and GWT



The bitter of javvascript from my eye is that now no powerful
javascript ide exist. Say, it is boring when I want to do some
refactorings in javascript.


/Jack

On 6/22/06, Scholten, Dan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm trying to get a base of reference between these 2 frameworks.  If anyone
> has any input on what they like or don't like about Dojo vs. GWT, please
> reply.  Any feedback is appreciated as I'm researching both for an upcoming
> project.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
> [hidden email]
> http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest
>
>
>

--
Keep Discovering ... ...
Copenhagen Spirit =
???????????????????????????????????.



_______________________________________________
Dojo FAQ: http://dojo.jot.com/FAQ
[hidden email]
http://dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-interest

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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

aaronmevans
In reply to this post by Jeff Papineau
> ----------------------------------------
> On 5/17/06, Jeff Papineau <jpapineau <at> responsys.com <mailto:jpapineau <at> responsys.com> > wrote:
>         It strikes me as the typical "most misunderstood language" syndrome, ala
>         Douglas Crockford. (Many java programmers have written Javascript off as a crippled language because they tried it too early in it's evolution and have not reviewed it lately (1.5) and don't really understand it's concepts, flexability, object oriented features or power. In fact, if you ask them if Javascript is an object oriented language, they will tell you "no", which is incorrect.)
>

I've been programming in Java and developing webapps for about 9
years.  I am very guilty of this misunderstanding of the javascript
language.  I tried to do a lot with Javascript about 6 or 7 years ago
and it was *very* painful.  (In fact, this is probably the source of
my frustrations with CSS, it simply didn't exist back then so
everything was done in HTML.)

After diving into dojo, I discovered that JS has come a *very* long
way.  I still find it trying by times mostly due to a lack of IDE
support and documentation (BTW if anyone can point me to the
definitive javascript language API reference akin to sun's published
Java API reference docs, please do!).

But I must say, now that I am heavier into dojo and using dojo's
package system and simplification of object inheritance, I am enjoying
programming in JS immensely!  I've started building my own js packages
and libraries.

My only major gripe with dojo is that some of the error messages when
it is loading your custom packages are very cryptic.  I don't care
what line number in dojo.js it barfed on, I want to know what line of
my code caused it!
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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Bill Keese-2
Aaron Evans wrote:
> But I must say, now that I am heavier into dojo and using dojo's
> package system and simplification of object inheritance, I am enjoying
> programming in JS immensely!  I've started building my own js packages
> and libraries.

Great.  It takes a while to wrap your head around javascript; it's an
unusual language.  There's also a lot of things that it does better than
classical OO languages like java; I'm sure you will learn about them in
time.

> My only major gripe with dojo is that some of the error messages when
> it is loading your custom packages are very cryptic.  I don't care
> what line number in dojo.js it barfed on, I want to know what line of
> my code caused it!

Ditto.  It's because of various try/catch blocks in the code; if the
catch() wasn't there then the browser would tell you the actual line
that failed.  I suggest commenting out the try and the catches.  (But I
forget exactly where they are now)

Bill
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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

Ged Byrne
In reply to this post by aaronmevans
Aaron,

Try these:

http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/#scripting


On 6/22/06, Aaron Evans <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ----------------------------------------
[...]
> support and documentation (BTW if anyone can point me to the
> definitive javascript language API reference akin to sun's published
> Java API reference docs, please do!).
>
[...]
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Re: Comparision between Dojo and GWT

aaronmevans
In reply to this post by Bill Keese-2
On 6/22/06, Bill Keese <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aaron Evans wrote:
> > My only major gripe with dojo is that some of the error messages when
> > it is loading your custom packages are very cryptic.  I don't care
> > what line number in dojo.js it barfed on, I want to know what line of
> > my code caused it!
>
> Ditto.  It's because of various try/catch blocks in the code; if the
> catch() wasn't there then the browser would tell you the actual line
> that failed.  I suggest commenting out the try and the catches.  (But I
> forget exactly where they are now)
>

In java, with many Exception sub-classes, you can pass a root cause
throwable (Exception) when you raise a new Exception.  Most J2EE
containers use this paradigm because the exception is raised in the
execution of some container code when trying to load some application
code and so the first stack trace doesn't tell you much.  The root
cause stack trace gets printed after and highlights the offending
application code.

It would be nice if something similar was done here so that when dojo
outputs the error, and says "bootstrap.js line X" then it might say
after "root cause: myscript.js line Y".

Not sure how difficult this would be (or if it's even possible), but
without this it can be a real guessing game sometimes...
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